Oney 2009-02-28 14:37:49

usually a song in flash lasts from like 3 seconds to about 30, depending on the situation on comedic timing. you should make a song for any situation, like happy stroll, sad, action packed, heavy montague, anything you can think of. as for SFX have them seperate from the track, so you can have some freedom. hope i helped

NAveryW 2009-02-28 15:01:11

Oney: Three-second song loops in Flash? My God...

Balvuc 2009-02-28 15:35:45

You already know what I'm looking for, haha.

Maybe this is not the place, but I'm kinda hanging for a further response of yours.
I'll understand if you decline, of course, it's just that I'd like to know your position as soon as possible ;P
I'd find it great to work with you, if you will.

Anyway, good luck with the production!

TheUnknownEntity 2009-02-28 16:00:11

(Note: This is of course just my opinion)

1. Length

In general, 30 seconds tops if it's game music that is wanted. For just animations it really depends on what the animation is, but in general they should probably be a little longer, but still loopable if they are to be used for that.

2. Genre/Style

Personally I prefer orchestral type music, but that's a lot more situational than most of the other genres, so I would focus on other types of music, but still do some orchestral every now and then.

3.Quantity

This one I can't really answer, but I can say that people will probably be looking for a lot more music if they're doing a game (obviously)

4.Size

From my experience, as long as it's in .wav form most things are okay.... usually

5. Sfx over music?

Once again this depends, however some cool SFX would be nice since there aren't that many great ones that are free out there

JPGarcia 2009-02-28 18:35:18

That is a great idea. Thanks!

1. 30 seconds loops are the best, and they are even better if they come in groups of 3 or 4... I mean they all start and end the same way, this way you can make them play randomly.
2. Electronic music is great for listening to it but I found it useless when trying to make a game. Orchestral is better.
3. Only one unless you have what I explaines in 1. Songs are heavy for a flash game.
4. Don't know/care.
5. I like FX and Music, but I will leave that choise to the players: In the game I am currently producing they player will be able to set the volume for both the FX sounds and the music.
WHEN IS NEWGROUNDS GOING TO HAVE A FX PORTAL? IT'S BY TIME!

Xyresic 2009-02-28 18:52:27

1. I'd say about 5-20 seconds would be optimum length for a loop.
2. Depends on the genre of the game.
3. For any game, 2-4 songs is about enough, which means 1 for a menu (if you have one,) 1 for the actual game, and perhaps 2 more for credits or other places.
4. I'd draw the limit at about 3.6 megs. I need my space to work!
5. They are equally as important, although i would tend to draw out the sfx a tiny bit more, because they are a little more dynamic.

Also, I am looking for a loop/song for a shooter game, 5-10 seconds, although shorter or longer is always fine... electronic/techno always works with Sci-Fi or shooter games, sawtooth and 'cheese' envelopes are fabulous and maybe a deep, stabbing arp pad for the background bass, i think that would sound good...
I think that would sound very good...

P.S: great idea guys, sounds like a fantastic thing to do!

zootoo8 2009-03-01 18:31:25

you could try making a song that is classical but also a bit of metal

Firebalt 2009-03-01 22:59:41

I'm interested

MusicIsBliss 2009-03-03 02:49:28

Alright, I have actually been working on a game for the xbox 360for a while, and came back to newgrounds last week for music ideas of how well the songs I used to love would work it games, and I found out most of them would not work very well.
the game probably will never be completed knowing my distractions with other things, and the amount of school I have to do, but we shall see.

my oppinions will be based on what I would generally look for to use in a game

1. length really can very, longer songs can be used, but will probably be reused in multiple levels, due to the fact that it wont get tedious as fast, where as short 30 second loops could be useful for theme specific levels, or boss fight, which could actually be cut to 20seconds. The average song for a game I would say should be 1:10 - 2-40, assuming it isnt a 1 day flash project game.

2. electronic is nice, but doesnt usually fit game settings, then again, something completely orchestral usually stands out too much. In between doesnt really work with it entirely either due to the feel of the song.
sometimes an electronic ambiant tune IS perfect for the job, al;most midi syle, but not quite. Thats what all the big rpg's had goin for then. Ideally a set of songs for a game would flow over a range of music genres, that commonly use trings, guitars, varieties of drum types, and synthed instruments quite often as well. Techno is not really a good use at any point, unless as a last resort or it really fits the theme or a boss battle. Ochestral has a bit more option, and a saw in ochestral songs would fit the atmosphere quite well.
generic sounding instruments(guitars without distorition, non sustained electronic notes) usually are the best for lead instruments in games

3. The number of songs depends greatly on the size of the game, also the song types depend on the game theme, and atmosphere of the level, as well as the gameplay action. inside the game it would usually be more subtle songs, ambience, pop, general rock, new wave, but the intro, and curing cut scenes, more epic music would be needed, orchestral, techno, metal, ect.

4. I would prefer using songs of 160 or 192 kbps, anything past that gives way too little for what it adds, sure if you are playing the game specifically to hear the song like rock band, you need better quality, but when it is there to emphasise the feel of the game and keep you entertained, noone is going to notice what the instruments are half the time, just that i was good music.

5. solid music is quite awesome, but more often than not people will silence the music, and maybe even play their own (especially if the game has replay value, and the songs get repeditive) but in the other hand, sound effects merely need to show you what is happening at any given time, so I prefer better music, but I know the average gamer, who cant tell shit about sounds, would prefer better SFX

My game I am making right now is a fighting game, and i was tryiong to get good music off of newgrounds for ideas of level themes and everything, and all the ideas ended up to be about robots and junkyards, just because of the basic genres and feels of the music within newgrounds. I would love to see some music actually made for games, and not so that all the little NG kids can be like "this song is THE EPIX-EST" and make their little 20 second flash video with it. I would like fullblown shit, with 3 parts, a subtle but strong 30 seconds, an epic 20 seconds, then a 30 second breakdown(or so) nothing too extreme, the song wouldnt be able to diverge much from its theme, but still keep it fresh.

Lastly, I would like to say that you already make amazing music, but say, look at castle crashers (seeing how you have a song in that, i know, i was a judge), the only real songs that seemed to fit into that game were waterflames, just because they fit the theme, and didnt pull away too far from tha game.

game songs should not be thought of as normal songs, for the most part, people dont have a games cd track, and listen to it (i say, for the most part)

sorry about such a long post, and uhh...

FINNISH THAT GOD DAMN SONG WITH RIG
or at least work on it, that thing is the shit, I wanna see it at its next stage, the guyy says some of it has been done, but its lost? shitty deal, work on it, its beautiful. probably not for a game, but you know.

Mrmilkcarton 2009-03-04 17:42:59

I'll help out with this if there is anything I can do. :D

tygonmaster1 2009-03-06 22:48:47

I know this is off topic...but great job on music for Tank Awards 2009 :)

Neophyte-Ronin 2009-03-07 01:36:02

I've juggled game design brainstorming sessions around creative playlists of songs downloaded here. This query is long overdue and I thank you for it. This ought to make life easier, once we figure out what we need and attain that, rather than composing songs we don't need.

Here are suggestions that clarify personal and community needs:

#1: Length

I remember 8-Bit era ingenuity; most game composers instilled rock vibes in chiptunes and it paid off. I prefer soundtracks with mean song lengths of fifty seconds per track. Most are shorter. Few get beyond a minute and a half. One such instance was the Follin Brothers' Silver Surfer soundtrack, a scrolling shoote.

Tracks beyond two minutes are typically forgettable. I can't retain long songs if they don't play completely through, and I'll forget the game shortly after. That spells doom for most casual, flash-driven online games. Never produce minute-and-a-half-long tracks except for end credits songs, final battles, or if designers request them.

Try segmenting songs into loops that flow together and are cued under certain situations. Richard Joseph's "Chaos Engine" (a.k.a. Soldiers of Fortune, SNES) soundtrack has songs that change according to threat proximity, like Metal Gear and Siphon Filter. Malleable transitions prevent monotony, preventing boredom and encouraging concentration. If transitions otherwise chop the beat up, the addition of "Bang" - like sound effects or programming actual "Volume Down to Zero" script might be used.

Ambiance maintains tension, but these don't have the luxury of being repetitive. A thirty-second ambient loop isn't too hot. However, I've heard the DOOM 64 (N64) soundtrack. Those creepy tracks are virtually infinite, perhaps due to multiple tracks of different lengths playing together. Theoretically, one ambient background music contains a minute-long track plays alongside two thirty-second tracks and one two minute-long track.

#2. Genre and Style

Some soundtracks get too flghty. pompous, or bring tension to a game but can't be listened to elsewhere. Portal Musicians tend to compose audio for games they envision, not what the designer has in mind (hence your query).

If tracks lack catchy melodies and rhythms, that creates more problems. Everyone loves the opening music for Dr. Wily's Skull Castle in Mega Man II but few apply the simple rules that govern its awesomeness. Hence, most portal-derived loops and songs geared toward games sound generic and forgettable. I've heard plenty of techno that became monotonous before it could loop, making me wonder: "Does this song go anywhere?"

Simple suggestion for designers and composers: rip off music ROM files onto a media player with appropriate plug-ins (typically Winamp), head to a media-sharing site and download games from NES, SNES, Mega-Drive/Genesis, and other dated computer consoles for inspiration.

Castlevania II has nine tracks, not including the "lost life sound clip" (one of the best in video game history). Will Harvey's The Immortal (NES version) is unique in that the tracks average a minute in length, tied together through a general tune that plays through most of the tracks, even in one-on-one battles.

Genre and Style vary greatly upon the game and not the designer. If the game has a moody, atmospheric signature, then some gruff, slow riffs, like the intro to a heavy metal song, is in order. If the game has a wicked sense of humor, then the soundtrack will be a kaleidoscope, like in the Earthworm Jim games.

Least of all, consider developing a series of tracks with a noticeable, common melody or riff that ties each track together. Ask the designer what manner of game they envision first, or otherwise the tracks won't fit and you will have blown both parties' time in jumping ahead.

#3: Quantity

The character-driven fighting game, like Street Fighter, might call for a location and a theme for each character, including ending themes. The population makes make this task daunting, so try the Mortal Kombat approach and concentrate on arena settings or upon a general mood (Dan Forden's "dark Asian" vibe caught me better than the "round-the-world" schtick of Yoko Shimmomura).

Some games have a different song for each area. In Super Turrican, there are fifteen songs loosely threaded together by common themes. Across four environments, each area had four stages. Others, like in the Super Mario games, have songs pertaining to the environments, which are then recycled repeatedly. Perhaps that is why said songs have stuck in our minds?

Other games have songs according to game situation. In Marshall Parker's SNES Shadowrun, the player character hears an environment's general music, gunfight music, or two themes for character conversations, each one geared to specific moods.

A soundtrack averages between five to twenty tracks. For Castlevania II, with its reasonably epic scope in terms of game length, nine songs is a healthy medium. And they aren't really long songs, either. They really shouldn't be.

#4: Size

When Helbereth and I started out, it became difficult to work within a small file size limit (without begging to the Fulp Bros.). These days, some games are 17 MB big or bigger!

Four aspects of a game: Virtue, Material, Aesthetic, and Escapism. Virtue means replay factor, trumping Material and Aesthetic. Material is gathering head counts or coins. There must be more to the game than that. Aesthetics merely immerse you and music falls under that category. The game designer would love a sweeping soundtrack if the file size budget could afford it without begging. The only way toward Escapism--that special point where games are impossible to let go upon playing them--is keeping priorities straight. As a result, most designers never consider the soundtrack and composers like you get shafted out of proper interactions with them.

The bit rate for a track, I imagine, can be tweaked. You have 64k and 32k or 16k. 128, then 192 and then 256... now you're pushing it. But for the best sound quality, you need heavy doses of "Win" to keep things from being muffled. That's the designer's call for the most part, but develop looping tracks of 320k between thirty seconds (less if possible) to a minute and a half, and you should be okay for most game designers. The bit rates are adjusted according to situations such as stereophonic sound, mono-aural sounds, and programming the instances of sound effects to properly apply stereophonic sound. For the dude who wants it all, insist upon a few compromises.

The instance of sound effects is simpler, since most of these are very small in file size. The next point should illustrate this.

#5: SFX over Music?

While another Portal for Sound Effects is debatable, there should be a designation for such things beyond just Miscellaneous Loop or Song. There are also sites on the net that are rife with these puppies but the same sounds are used over and over again. Helbereth often resorted to creating his own.

Prioritizing sound effects over music varies by what kind of game is being produced. Again, if you looked up NSFs in your media player, a few downloaded ROMs contain sound effect lists. Many are diverse and far-reaching. Action-Adventure games like Contra or Streets of Rage require a number of sound effects, up to and including voice overs. Other games like Call of Cthulhu (card strategy game) might use few sounds and a few good dark ambient tracks. Thematic issues come to play; the cyberpunk Shadowrun had a dark alt-rock vibe with funk aspects, emulating the urbane style of the original pen-and-paper game.

Again, always ask the designer a thousand and one questions, and get them answered.

What Would I Like to See?

I doubt you would try, but I envision a game based on 8-Bit Theater where you play Black Mage, a side-scrolling free-range adventure where BM must navigate a dungeon and eradicate an infestation of Cultists (ala Metroid II: Return of Samus). Five Environment themes, a Boss theme, Menu/Intro theme, Escape theme, and End Credit theme are what I envision, though I got all the metal-esque songs I need. ;)

Danman87 2009-03-08 20:38:48

You could practically follow the model of music libraries where you often got 1-2 min cues along with shorted 30 sec versions of them. Then you could export seperate versions of one track such as drums and FX only or just the choir, anything that could still go through as a good sounding piece.

I could possibly submit some short cues out of my old junk library. Just wanted to know if you'd be interested.

EternalXIII 2009-03-10 02:19:11

I'd like to help any way I can. This seems like a great idea. Check my audio page, I'm not the best, but I'm sure I could contribute. Plus it seems like this would be a great opportunity to spread my wings a bit and do some different stuff. Let me know if you are interested.

Dynamic-Nova 2009-03-12 17:14:00

1. Length
For most games music should only be about 30 seconds to a minute - but should loop nicely.
The main reason for this is that alot of games, unless very epic and lengthy, will only show that song until gameover, next level etc.. so a long song wouldnt be necessary

2. Genre/Style
Orchestral

3.Quantity
Usually, 1 for menu, 1 for gameplay, and then maybe one for the death screen, to add some dramatic effects

4.Size
Really doesnt matter as it will be compressed to fit the need of the filesize

5. Sfx over music?
Solid sound effects, but a nice ambient BG music is also needed

Wintertimes 2009-03-15 12:01:21

1. Length: I think you might want to separate this into a triple category of title, middle scenes, and closing credits., so I guess that's 1 minute loops, song loops, and a really long song?
2. Genre: Personally this has to fit the project. I don't feel comfortable unless I have techno (Helix6 :D) when I'm shooting something, and at the same time I don't feel like slashing something without epic battle music. What you did with dark cut 2 was amazing.
3. Quantity: This again has to fit the project. Short game, I'm not seeing more than 2-3 songs. Epic long ones, possibly upwards of 5-8. Armed With Wings 2 used quite a few from the Red Steel soundtrack.
4. As a personal rule, I take music as 25% of filespace, but 50% if I'm adding sound effects. a good song is about 8 megs, so if a project is 45, 20 megs of sound isn't unreasonable. More maybe.
5. Sfx/Music: They have to fit together. Critiquing some games, the audio sometimes has no style similarities with the music. They have to blend together. If you watch some game trailers or really good fight vids, (Color Wars) it's quite obvious the sfx fit the beats a lot if not most of the time.

You may also want to consider making a model showcase in flash to see what people can do with your audio. ^ ^

I asked about providing violin samples a while back, I'm just stuck on finding an audio codec to compress the files. Any help? I'm ready to audition for the symphony!

Steven-Polley 2009-03-20 11:19:56

1) When I'm working on a game, generally 30 seconds, to a minute long is a good loop lenth, but I prefer to have them in .wav, rather than MP3, which NG doesn't support, so I often find myself making a lot of my own loops. MP3's don't loop properly, .wav does though.

2) Depends on the game... style of the game and the overall feel of the game... so really if the connection of music to the game is irrelavant to setting a mood, then the genre doesn't matter, and I would likely just put in something that I, personally enjoy listening to... EDM.

3) For a small project, 1-3 loops/songs. For something a bit bigger, anywhere from 4-10 loops/songs. I've yet to complete a big project, but I'm working on one right now.

4) Generally, my soundtrack will be as the highest quality as possible to begin with, because flash re-renders it all upon export. As it's exported in flash, it'll be down to 64 - 128 kbps. So size really isn't a HUGE issue, as most of my art is vector anyways, and AS really barely takes up anything either. If size did become an issue, and the song WAS on Newgrounds... I would just stream it from the game.

5) That is definitely a tought one. But you can make a game without music, and without soundFX, and it would just sound dead, and flat. I would have to go with the proper choice of sound FX being the most imortant though (personal opinion).

As far as dream projects go... I don't really dream about making stuff... I'm more of a spontaneous planner.... so yeah...

Also, what is this group about? If it's just a common group of collaboritive artists who create custom tracks for use in specific flash games, I might be iterested in joining.

DrSevenSeizeMD 2009-03-21 21:37:42

I'm not developing anthing atm. I just wanted to tell you that you're awesome. :-)

Gorgorothx 2009-03-23 04:24:24

I'm very interested in joining your team! It would be exactly what I need. My main specialties are ambient, techno, and hip/trip-hop stuff... I'm still testing the waters with orchestral type stuff at the moment. The reasons I am interested in your team is 1. gaining experience and knowledge by working with others that may be better than myself at creating music 2. Helping the community here at NG, and elsewhere ;) and 3. My goal isn't to make money at this point, just to get my work heard! PM me, or respond to this post and I'll correspond further. Thanks -Alex (Scag Baron)